How to Use Online Trends like Pickleball to Create Hit Products with Tim Swindle & Scott Brown

Welcome back. Super stoked that you're tuning in to this week's episode. And I cannot wait to introduce our next guests to you. Yes, I said guests with an S. I have my first duo on the show, Tim Swindoll and Scott Brown who are the founders of paddle Smash, think pickleball meets spike ball. If you don't know what Pickleball is, I think you might be living under a rock because it is the fastest-growing sport, I think, or it is one of the fastest-growing sports out there. And it is so much freaking fun. I tried it for the first time a few summers ago with my father-in-law who really loves pickleball. And then I've played it with friends of ours and I'm a bit competitive. If you don't know that already. I'm a bit competitive. And I gave up playing soccer in 2020 After I injured my Achilles, and I've had this recurring Achilles heel basically, and my Achilles has just never been the same. And so I thought, I'm going to try playing pickleball it's low impact. Unless you're competitive like me, and you start diving all over the court. It's kind of fun anyways, if you haven't played pickleball Absolutely, you need to try it. But what's super cool is Tim's Wendell and Scott Brown are both eight-figure entrepreneurs with experience in launching, buying, growing and selling outdoor and board games-focused companies. The current project that they have is this new outdoor game called paddle Smash. It is a combination of pickleball and Spikeball so much we can find you can buy it, you can take it to a park, you can take it on vacation with you. It's super cool, and they're going to share with you how to use online trends to create hit products. So without further ado, please welcome Tim and Scott to the show.

Kathryn Thompson  00:02

Hey, hey, I am super stoked to have Scott and Tim on the show today. They are my first duo, which I'm really excited about. And they're here to share with us how they turn their pickable passion into a business. So Scott, I'm going to start with you. Do you want to share with our listeners, who you are and what you guys do? So that they know.

00:23

Yeah, so I'm Scott Brown. And I mean, pickleball passion, I think that's what I tend to do most days is I play a lot of pickleball. It's not what I do for a living, unfortunately. But I'm trying to try to make it a living now. So I think I, I've spent my entire career almost in the toy and game space. So no complaints, I get to play for a living. I'm always on the lookout for something that's nicely aligned with things I love to do. And I started to get really into pickleball, about two years ago. And I mean, it's hard not to see these days that it is a massive trend, fastest growing sport in North America. Teams just recently purchased by LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Tom Brady. And so you know, as I was playing I, it was hard not to notice that this thing was becoming massive. And I started to think, with my business hat on, was there an opportunity here, and I think it was a gold rush to the space, it is a gold rush to the space, and most are getting into kind of the apparel, the pickle balls, the paddles. And I just wanted to figure out if there was a clever way to get into the space without competing with everyone else, head on. And so that's kind of what brought us to this product that we're going to be talking to you about today. But that's a bit of background me I've got a lot longer story that we could get into. But that's some quick and dirty context.

Kathryn Thompson  01:49

So cool. And and what got you guys working together? Have you always worked together? Or how did that partnership start?

01:58

Yeah, so we are so a little bit about my background. So I was actually in software, I was created a software that was a b2b software's very different from toys and games. And it was like a venture backed company that, I don't know, it's very stressful time in my life. And it's kind of like a fun passion project on the side, I decided to create a card game. And the card game, which is kind of like a silly akin to like Cards Against Humanity, if you're familiar with that, the game that had been super popular the past several years, so it's kind of a late night party game with friends. And so I launched that game is like a, you know, nights or weekends side hustle. And I did a little Kickstarter, it that funded didn't go crazy on Kickstarter, but it got funded. So it's kind of the first first when and through that. We were both living in Chicago at the time. And new kind of mutual friend that knew Scott, who had started a company called marbles, the brain store. And they were like a specialty retailer in the toy and game space. And so he actually was the first retailer to carry my game, which was called other nonsense. And so that is how we got to know each other. So yeah, he carried my game and in his stores. And he's got kind of a cool story of what he did there with marbles, the brain store to grow it to 40 locations nationwide. And so but that got us working together and in some capacity, and through that relationship, we ultimately became pretty close friends. I am, I ended up selling my company to a big private equity back to end game company. Scott also ended up selling his company to a large Canadian publicly traded to end game company. But we'd always vowed to do something together. And so the opportunity presented itself with this latest game paddle Smash. And so here we are.

Kathryn Thompson  03:58

Yeah, so share with me what paddle Smash is.

04:03

Paddle Smash, the best way to think about it is it's a love child of pickleball and Spikeball. So for those are brand new to either of those terms. I'm gonna give some contexts. So I as I said, pickleball massively growing. I've heard people describe it as jumbo ping pong, or miniature tennis. You're playing it typically kind of on a smaller version of a tennis court, and you're playing with kind of jumbo sized ping pong paddles, and then a wiffle ball. It feels like it's just hit the scene. It's actually been around since the 1960s. But it was like a slow, slow growth and then, for a bizarre combination of reasons. It's really spiked in growth over the last caught for years. And then Spikeball has been the fastest growing most successful outdoor game over the last 10 years. I actually had like, Ground Zero Have you to that success with my stores. As Tim mentioned, I had brick and mortar retail stores. And we were one of the very first retailers to carry speical. He was based in Chicago, my stores were started in Chicago, I lived there. And so got to know the founder of that company. And we helped him grow. And it was really exciting to see that growth. And I got to see the way an outdoor game resonated and what they did to help it to grow. And so I think both of those worlds, we've kind of Tim and I are always on the lookout for trends. Tim and I were kind of looking for what the next thing was that we could do together. And we saw the growth of both of those. And we actually started noodling this idea of, well, what if you were to combine some of the best elements of both of those games into one game, actually even sketched it out, I've got this early stage sketch of this. And as it happens, I was introduced to an inventor that lives just an hour away from me at that exact same time, and he presented to me a combination of Spikeball and pickleball. And it's funny how that often happens in the world of invention. And I actually love it, I think it's great, it shows that something's in the ether, and it to me indicates that you're onto something. And so, you know, we have this awkward that kind of this moment of, well, do we run with our idea? Or do we work with this inventor, and that just through kind of lots of experience, learn that it's usually the better opera, the better idea is to work with an inventor, the biggest reason here is he had refined this concept over two years. And we just were the very early stages, I didn't want to go through two years of refinement. So what we did was we licensed this idea from him. And the quick and dirty kind of overview of how this plays is it's it's a little bit like you know, volleyball in that you've got to, you've got to work with a teammate to bump set and smash in our case the ball back into the court. So this game plays best to versus to, you're working with your teammate, and you are hitting this ball back and forth until on the third shot, you have to hit it back into the court, it's then the other teams turn to use their paddles to bump set, and then smash it back into the court. And you go back and forth like that hitting into this space, our base is on the ground. It's it's shaped like a hexagon. And you are then are rotating around that working your way kind of to get that shot back into the courtroom. So it's so fun best scene rather than explain. So we've got lots of videos out there. If anyone just does a Google search of paddle Smash, or goes to paddle smash.com, you can see a quick visual of what that looks like. It is to me, it captures all of the best elements of both of those games. What I love about pickleball is it's so accessible to a broad range of ages. What I love about spike ball is that you've got this portable game that you can easily take to the park and set up. Well, we've done both of those things. We've made it so basically it's pickleball to go. And it's easier than Spikeball spike balls just a little bit exclusive. It's just it's hard to play for older adults. And so we've made a game that's just a bit easier so that, you know, families can play together. Yeah, so

Kathryn Thompson  08:11

cool that excuse me, that you can you're bringing it because I know here where I'm located. And when I was first introduced to pickleball by my father in law, like we'd show up at courts, and they'd be full and there'd be nowhere to play and you're like waiting in line or like when are you going to be done? And can we get the on the court and all of that. So this is super cool that you're able to take this, and it's accessible for all ages. So just because I think that's the thing that really took off where I am for pickleball was like the older generation being able to play it. And then obviously, the younger generation getting their hands on it. Now I'm like, oh my god, this is the best thing. But I actually just ran into someone who was like, What is pickleball? And was like, Have you been living under a rock? Because it's like the fastest growing Spore, like what are you talking about? So how do you identify then trends like to start to create products like this? Or games? Like how do how do you go about that process? Is it something that you're passionate in? And that's what kind of drives it or starts it? Or how does the whole process

09:12

start? So in our case, Scott in particular, his role for the past several years has been to the chief as the chief merchant officer, he would basically go around and look for new products, he'd go to all the different coin game fairs around the world, and hunt basically for these hidden gems. So he's really attuned to looking for you know, what could be a good hit product and he's personally brought like 160 products to life. I'm a little less less so in that regard, but have still brought a few things you know, to the world that have ultimately been successful. So I think between the two of us you know, we maybe have some decent taste in in game games and toys and what could be potentially popular in the future? And so, I mean, there are some just kind of obvious answers to your question which are being paying attention to like pop culture, right? So we just have been talking about pickleball. Like, you really can't, unless you're this person you just met. You can't avoid hearing about pickleball these days. I mean, it's just everywhere. And so you just keep hearing that enough times, and it's like, alright, like, there's something going on here. You know, like, how can we get involved, and then you just start brainstorming. Another one would just be social media, you look at trends happening on on social media, and things that are getting popular there, you know, then you start to think through are there ways to create a product around a certain particular trend? Like, you know, one specific example is another game that Scott and I collaborated on. That was this like ping pong trick shot game. And it was kind of what happened was during the lockdown period, during COVID, you had all these people and stuck inside playing ping pong trick shots in their house, just with like, House made, like pots and pans and things like that. So we actually created the game around that. It's just like an example of like, a trend we saw kind of happening. So yeah, I mean, it's just kind of staying tuned. You know, Scott gives a great example of, you know, there's a difference between like domesticated dog, and a dog in the wild. rescued dogs has floppy ears, because it's fat and a happy at home, no one's trying to eat it, you know, dog in the wild. It's got its ears up like antennas, you know, and it's paying attention. And I think both Scott and I just kind of have our ears up looking for new ideas and paying attention to what, you know, trends are happening in pop culture.

Kathryn Thompson  11:50

Yeah, so cool. And I know, Scott talked about, like, not wanting to just enter the market of pickleball. And just do shirts or balls or rackets or whatever, that you're looking to do something different? And do you feel like, that is like the most important thing when hopping on a trend? Because so that you're not getting? You know, the market doesn't get saturated with other things and competition and all of that, like, how are you going about trying to find these two things that can merge together? That are different?

12:21

Yeah, you know, I, I don't think that's always the case. I think you can go right after a trend and kind of enter the fray. Yeah, certainly people getting into the pickleball space, creating paddles, there will still be big success stories in that space that haven't even started. So I wouldn't caution someone away from pickleball. We're still it's so early. There. Were I like it, you know, certainly established, established marketplaces, I think it's a smart idea to look for tangential ways to get in. And in this one, even though it is early stage, we just really liked the idea that we could kind of ride the coattails of these without feeling like we were competing against those. So it just made sense for us. You know, Tim talks about like, how do you spot a good idea? Or how do you make a good idea. And so many of the best ideas are combinations of things that already exist. It's really rare. I kind of liken it to cooking, I love to cook. It's really rare that there's new ingredients in a recipe, it's just a rearranging of the same ingredients we've always used and you create something new. And certainly in Toys and Games, that's the case. I mean, I could name that the top toys and games over the last decade. All of them are just mix ups, and rearranging of ingredients of existing successes. And so I mean, that's a really good way, I think, to think about opportunity out there is to look at successes. So you know, you might say well, burgers are a really successful food. Right category right now. Why don't want to make a burger restaurant that's really, really competitive. Yeah, but Korean food is a really successful style of food right now. Well, maybe I make a Korean burger brand. You just kind of mix, mix up these two successful categories into something that feels a little fresh and new. And for us it it hopefully will work really well. To two examples. One is that we are working with a partner called Chicken and pickle. They are kind of an entertainment idea. It's like top golf but for pickleball. So you come you play pickleball you get food, you have fun. It's awesome. And they're going to be going around the country attending these pickleball tournaments. And they're just looking for something to attract attention to their booth to kind of say, hey, come and learn about us. Well, they can't have a pickleball court in that booth. But they can have a product like ours, and we're not competing against them in any way. And so we kind of ended up being this thing that people like to have to attract attention. It's like, you know, portable pickleball. without it feeling like it's competing against anything they're doing. So that's a really nice kind of ride the coattails of and then the other is just, you know, we went into this knowing we wanted to ultimately get into brick and mortar retail, but thinking we would delay that until we had established ourselves a little bit more in the direct consumer market. But we knew we needed to get some feelers out to the brick and mortar retailers. And we kind of had in our head three that we wanted to target out of the gate, we sent emails and totally cold. And when you send a cold email to a buyer on a big company, you do not expect to hear back, or at least not to hear back without lots and lots of attempts. Well, we heard back immediately, really prefer three heard back immediately. And I credit that almost entirely to the fact that we are hitching their wagon to such big opportunities, such successes, I mean, these buyers, I'm sure being told by their bosses, anything pickleball related, you find. So that's one and then two, they've had such success with Spikeball, that for them when they get an email that says we've created a game that combines Spikeball with pickleball. I think they're like, Yes, please. And he Yeah, yes, please. And so we Dick's Sporting Goods, the biggest outdoor sporting goods retailer in the US, we sent a cold email to her back immediately, they invited us to their offices and picked Pittsburgh to pitch even than we expected. If they were to bring it in. It would be next summer. Yeah, they expedited the launch. They I don't know if they do this very often. It was like these guys plan a year in advance. And they were like, We want to bring it in now. Basically, thank God, we got orders within weeks of that meeting, to launch this fall in test stores, because they're so eager for anything related to pickleball.

Kathryn Thompson  16:56

Yeah, yeah. And I think the combination, like you said, right, it's like taking two really popular things and kind of like, meshing it together, which I think is is also really unique, right? It's like it's not, yes, Pickleball is still very new. And it's, it's on the rise and all of that, but I think what you guys have done is is a really cool combination of Smash Ball and pickleball. And that's so cool that you got into Dick's Sporting, yeah, it's it's, it's, it's amazing. So, in terms of the inventor, because you talked about the inventors like what tell our listeners what it takes to actually bring an idea to market and why finding that inventor was so you know, the universe kind of just delivered this inventor that's like lives down the street from you, basically, which is so cool. But why the inventor pieces kind of maybe expedited, you going to market faster.

17:52

So with any idea all times, they sound great on paper. Yeah. But it's not until you are actually physically using, touching, feeling playing with the product, that you can kind of understand that there's something really there. And this is particularly true, I would imagine with a lot of products, but particularly true with toys and games, like you just need to use it and to play it. And so while Scott and I in our brains thought that this concept we had sketched up would work this gentleman Joe, he actually gone out and built it. So he built this prototype. Joe is a structural engineer by trade, he's just good with his hands, he can, you know, he knows how to use a router and a CNC machine and stuff like that. And so he created a really nice prototype nicer than we usually see. But that that's a big thing, we would encourage anyone to try to, in whatever way possible kind of Frankenstein something together that you can actually like, use to see if your idea has merit. And so in this case, he created the kind of several versions and he iterated on it over a period of like two years. And each time he would play it with his neighbors and the friends and family. So that's a really critical component and piece of bringing a new product to market, again, particularly in Toys and Games, is that play testing, we call it and he we, he sped up that process for us because he had done that over a period of two years. Whereas if we wanted to do that, it would have take us at least a year to create the prototype, play tested, refine it, etc. And so we just found enough value in what he did and just the sizing of all the components and the angles of the net and just all these little nuanced things that you probably don't think through that just you really perfected. Yeah, that being said, he also what he did create was not ready for mass retail. There was a, I think the thing was probably like 60 pounds, like you couldn't carry it. It was like a like a UFO. Oh my God. And so what we had to do was then reengineer how we could create this what he did, but make it so it's mass producible ready for retailers,

Kathryn Thompson  20:20

portable,

20:21

just pick it up, throw it in your, you know, in the back of your car, take to the beach, or whatever. So we did have enough work to do just with that. So we worked with, like, design industrial design engineering firm, to kind of recreate what he did. But in a, you know, again, you know, version that we could take to market. Yeah. So So yeah, so that's a little bit of you know, why we chose to work with him and the benefits of working with, with an inventor.

Kathryn Thompson  20:48

Yeah, expedite that sort of like testing phase or play phase of where you're Yeah, you're kind of learning. And pretty funny that yeah, it was 60 pounds, not really portable. No. So in terms of deciding to go direct consumer first, is that traditional, like when you do develop it, like a toy, or a game or whatever? Is it important to go to direct consumer get those sales in the door to then pitch brick and mortar? Or what was your guys's thinking about why do brick and mortar second and direct to consumer first?

21:19

Yet there's some irony that that's my approach, considering I used to be a an owner of a retail chain of stores that I would opt to not go to retail first. But I think there's been some lessons learned by both of us over the last decade, traditionally, so you ask, is it traditional to go direct to consumer? First? I'd say no, certainly, traditionally, the only option really was to go straight to a retailer. Yeah, in toys and games that I'd say the traditional route for anyone except for the kind of top five was to start in specialty. Yep. So kind of the Mamaw world of specialty retail, and then work your way up, build a an awareness of the brand, and work your way up, and then hopefully get noticed by mass market. For the big cut top five players, they just go straight to mass market, and they've got the relationships and the marketing budgets to be able to do that. But if you were a brand new brand, and you happen to get into a mass market store, you are basically just praying that it succeeds. But it's through almost sheer luck, if it does, because you don't have generally the budget to advertise that thing. And you're kind of just relying on your packaging to do the work because you don't have an employee, like especially shop to tell someone about that product. You know, there are miracles, Tim's Tim's game out or nonsense was a bit of a miracle. He got it into Target almost out of the gate. And it was a success. But he again was riding the coattails of a category of games, kind of these adult party games, Pioneer being Cards Against Humanity. And so Tim, you know, smart enough to create a game that kind of rode those coattails. But for most, that's not a very viable way to bring a product to market. We knew this and what we sort of grew tired of was this dynamic? Have you build something? Okay, so number one, the specialty route is long and hard. It's expensive, long and hard. You don't really like gotta dedicate maybe 10 years of like slogging against the thing. Often that's the case. And we didn't want to do that. And the world has now opened up an opportunity to go direct to consumer like never before, you know, between Amazon and sites like Shopify, you can build your own website and get in front of consumers fairly easily these days. And we also didn't like the idea of creating something and then begging a mass market buyer to carry it, it just it creates a relationship, that you are at their mercy, and we didn't want to be at their mercy, we wanted to first build enough of a demand around it, then we kind of came to the table together. And not that we wouldn't still want to be in those mass market stores. But we don't want to beg for it. And so our approach was let's go direct to consumer build enough of a demand and awareness that we've proven the concept out. And then it's less of a risk for these these mass market retailers. And also it just gives us the product of better chance of success. You know, if you've got some demand built up, and then you put it onto those mass market chefs will lease there some awareness going around that can help that succeed.

Kathryn Thompson  24:42

Yeah. And is there iterations of the product like has the product evolved? Like now that you've put it out there, people are tying it like have you is there improvements? If somebody was say, listening and they're like, I want to create a product or a game, you know, is that Built into sort of your plan of launching is some iterations and evolution of the product.

25:08

So the main product, we'll call it, I would say, not really, for the time being, however, give one kind of example of just seeing what it's like being in a startup situation like we are. So when we first started, we just kind of took the rules that the inventor had provided to us. And we were rushed to get the design ready. And we went into production, because the lead time for production and shipping and whatnot is like six months. And so we were really wanting to get it launched as quickly as possible. And after we had already released our production run, we discovered a new way to play the game. So that that would be a good example of where, you know, we've made a change on the fly. So here, we've got our first, you know, 1000 plus units that are on their way to us, and we've changed the instructions and how you play, it not majorly changed, but like some key differences that we just feel like really make the game more fun, easier to learn, you know, that type of a thing. And so I guess we did do those, we somewhat thought ahead, and that these types of things happen. And instead of including kind of full instructions in the button, the box and the packaging, we actually created a QR code that takes you to the instructions. So when you first get it, you just scan a QR code, it takes you to how to play. So fortunately, all we've had to really do is update, you know, our How to Play instructions online. And that's like a living, breathing document. So in the future, if we were to change things, you know, we can always just, you know, update them online, and not worry about these legacy instructions that are sitting out there somewhere. So yeah, that would be you know, one example for you.

Kathryn Thompson  26:59

Yeah. And what a cool way to, like adapt that right? Like, because most games come with, like the paper instructions in there. But yeah, to have that QR code and be able to update that as, as the game. Do you see it the rules changing? Or things changing as you go along? Or is it kind of pretty set right now?

27:16

I think it's pretty set. Yeah, we feel we feel really good about where the games at, you know. And so, again, because of the work he did over the past two years to really iron it out and figure out, you know, a lot of like the dimensioning and sizing components and things like that. I mean, those are types of things that maybe those get tweaked minorly in the future, but nothing really no big overhaul of the product that we could see at this point.

Kathryn Thompson  27:43

Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned the whole, you know, going to kind of the mom and pop, and that can be like a tenure route sort of thing. Like, if you know, someone's listening, and they're wanting to produce a game or product or whatnot. Like, how long? And maybe this, you might not be able to answer this, but like, what's it what's a length of time? Because that's a big commitment, right? It's like to really get there to sort of like beg for these people to put your product in their store, like, when when do you say like the product is going to take off? Or the product is going to, you know, maybe not, and I need to, to move to a different idea or something like that.

28:19

That that is a question that's answered best by how much runway you have for yourself? Yeah, it really depends. You know, if you've got a lot of runway, you can, number one, you can build a very successful business that's only sold in mom paw specialty toy toy stores. There are lots of companies that don't even sell their products to mass market retail. So you can do that. It's just, I'd say it's just harder. It's, it's, it takes longer. It's all hard. It just takes longer with mass market. I mean, like, you know, you go to a mom hos shop in your neighborhood, and they might have two locations. Well, if you're going into Target store, they've got 1800 locations. I mean, you're immediately an 1800 doors, and they're buying six units. I mean, it is it's a massive first order that you get, I mean, even us you think like when you know we're doing this direct consumer business, and we have some mom pop shops reaching out to us about paddle Smash, and they'll buy six from us. I mean, that's nice. It's great. But you know, it's like even in test stores of Dick's Sporting Goods, they're buying in one order 300 units, and you just see the volume game behind this mass market. So I mean, to answer your original question, I don't think I would, I would not probably put a timeline on it. There's not one blanket timeline to put on it depends a lot on each situation. For me personally, if I don't feel like I've got traction, so it's kind of real movement. Probably within a year and a half. I will usually cut the cord yeah I'm okay. Yeah, for me, if I don't feel like I'm getting some movement, getting kind of some organic sales without me needing to constantly be pushing it, then I will usually cut the cord. I've done that recently with some card games that I had going, and I just wasn't getting the movement I needed. And to me, I just am like, I've got a million other ideas all I'll move on to something else and give it a try. I don't need to spend the next 10 years of my life just trying to push this out into people's hands.

Kathryn Thompson  30:29

Yeah. And so speaking of million ideas I was gonna be my next question is like, I know you guys have this product that's on the market. Like, do you have other things that are in the works right now together?

30:42

This is our main focus right now. I mean, we do. Yes, by the nature of who we are. I think we just have our hands and a couple different, I'll just call more side hustles. But yeah, this this is we are we have been we've, we've raised capital for this, like, we're, we're looking at this as like this is going to be what we're focused on for the coming however many years. I mean, we we think the opportunity is huge with this. And we're taking it very seriously. And so this is what's eating up and consuming most of our time right now.

Kathryn Thompson  31:15

Yeah, it's a very cool, very cool concept. So where can people get it? If they want to get their hands on it?

31:22

You can go to paddle smash.com. So yeah, paddle smash.com is our Shopify site, that's a great place to go. Lots of information there, you can often find a discount there. So that's, that's a great option. But also we have a, we have an Amazon store. So I understand that's a quicker and easier way for people's often to make a purchase. So we'd love for people to buy it there as well. And then, you know, we'll be in select Dick's Sporting Goods stores in the next couple of weeks. You know, we're, we're filming this late October 2022. So in the next couple of weeks, and then hopefully a lot more stores in the spring. And then the other is shields if you're living near shields, this next spring will be in shields, which is a sporting goods store. And then just lots more, you know, we are that is a constantly changing answer. But the back the immediate places are Paris, match.com. And on Amazon,

Kathryn Thompson  32:17

brilliant. And we will definitely link those up in the show notes so people can quickly access that I think this is again going to be a pretty amazing Christmas gift. I think I have it on my list for people in my life. Because like I said, Pickleball is totally taken off. So it's been such a pleasure talking to you both. Is there anything else you'd love to share with our listeners before we wrap up?

32:40

Thank you for listening. Yeah, awesome.

32:42

Yeah, I think like the theme that we like to say is just like to get your idea out there and start letting people rough it up a little bit. I think that's just like a general overarching thing we've learned is to, to not bury your idea, and kind of protect it so much that you're so worried about someone copying it or whatever. It's just we have had so much we've we've gained so much by even let's take paddle smash as an example by getting it out putting out in the world in the early stages and letting people rough it up. And I think this is a general like, your ideas are not precious. I know they feel that way to you right now. But they're not precious and you need to let him go out into the world and get roughed up. Because you'll end up with something far better on the other end.

Kathryn Thompson  33:30

Yeah, and such a beautiful message to leave with because I hear not only in in product space world where people are creating products and inventing things, but even in the service based world right I hear lots people saying like, why don't want to share that thing or the way that I do things because I don't want people to copy and I just think it's you know, such a beautiful message to leave with because I think a lot of really great ideas. Just stay that ideas in our brain and because we don't share them with the world and we don't let people rough them up and and be able to create something really beautiful, which I think you guys have have done with this with this product. And I know yes, a lot of products you've probably created but this one's super unique and cool. And I've loved having you guys on to share, share it with my listeners.

34:11

So thanks for having us on. We appreciate it.

Kathryn Thompson  34:14

Yes, thank you so much.

If they don't get you out buying paddle Smash, I don't know what we'll we're going to link up the link here so you can get your hands on it. Honestly, it just sounds like such a fun game. Just taking those two really fun games pickleball and Spikeball and putting together. The other really cool thing is, is it's accessible, you can take it to the park, you can take it on holidays, I know when we would show up at the pickleball courts in BC, when we were there for vacation, they were always full. And so we'd have our heart set on playing a game, but we'd show up and there'd be people there. So you'd have to walk around being like how much longer do you guys have, and when you leave, you run the risk of losing your spot in line. So this is just really cool, really fun, something that you can play with your family and your friends. So we're gonna link it up soon. Get your hands on it. Now on to the next episode. You know, I am all about tapping into your creative self expression, especially if you want to stand out on line and stand out as an entrepreneur. There's so much emulation, there's so much I need to do it this way, because this is the way that I'm taught and as you know, that ends up just diluting your message. So I thought, what better person to bring on to really express that creativity and really show you the creative process than a musician. Right artists are tapping into that creative flow all the time, and I'm really excited for our next guest. She's a good friend of mine. She's a musician. She's the lead singer of the man king queen, and they're getting ready to drop a brand new EP and I am just really excited to have her on her name is Sabrina. She is the lead singer of king queen. So subscribe to the show so you don't miss when we drop this episode next week because she has so much to say

cheers