How to Bring the Whole of You Into Your Message and Offers with Jo Ingram

This is episode 66 of Be the Sought-After Entrepreneur Podcast

INTRO

Kathryn Thompson  00:02

Hey, hey, I am super stoked to have Joe on the show today. Without further ado, Joe, I'm just going to change it, and turn it over to you so that our listeners can hear who you are, what you do, and who you serve.

Jo Ingram 00:13

Thank you so much, Katherine, I'm so excited to be here. Like, we had such a great chat. Well, what only what about week ago about energetic Magnetic Messaging. And I know that so much of what we do has so many synergies. So I'm excited this conversation. Thank you. Thank you for asking about what I do. So I'm an ex, advertising agency director, turned spiritual business coach brand messaging strategist. And as I call it, energy curator, which shell kind of brings together all of the things that have become so important to me, and how most importantly, I help others, which is about really bringing their unique messaging and brilliance into what they do, as coaches. And I know from knowing about your amazing work that we're kind of on this spectrum of what we do, where you just make magic out of copy and turn messaging into magic. And I'm working at the, at the former end of it, where it's where people show up and say things like, I just, I'm energized by my business at the moment, because I'm a bit bored by my own messaging, even I don't get it anymore. And people ask me what I do. And I'm like, I don't even know what to tell them. And the clients I'm calling in are not my soul clients, and I don't understand what's going on. And it's the part that comes before the copy the parts where you bring the whole of you into your business. And that's just it's evolved over time. And it's become something I'm deeply passionate about helping people with and well to be honest, it lights me up and inspires me. So that's the key. That's what we all have to do show up and do what lights us up.

Kathryn Thompson  02:03

Yeah, and I love I know that we had that amazing conversation. And one of the things that really sort of like sparked something within me and I know, we were talking with a few different people. And so was your ability to sort of notice potentially, where people are playing small or maybe doing things within their business, messaging, offer all of those sorts of things that aren't fully showing who they are. And that's oftentimes why we don't feel energized in the work. Do you find that your clients don't even know like, they're kind of going, I don't feel energized, when what I'm doing or I'm not attracting the soul clients? Do they have any sort of inkling that potentially they're not bringing their full brilliance to the table?

Jo Ingram 02:50

I would say they mostly know, but they don't want to admit it. It's like the people that I work with, mostly, much like you and all of your clients are deeply intelligent, ambitious women, and frequently come up corporate just like I did. And they're kind of moving 100 miles an hour. They're like, right, get to market fast. I'm, I'm really good. I'm going to do this. And most mostly they do they get to a point. They create something, they sell it, they call in some clients, and some people just hit six figures and keep on going. It's not always about the money. It's mostly about the fact that they don't feel the authenticity flowing through a lot of times because they've evolved, and their business messaging offers content that hasn't. Because like the zone that we exist in here is a lifestyle choice. It's not just a business. And we're just having all this fun. And we're diving into new modalities and learning about new self-transformational tools. And all the time we're learning more and we're changing. And people desire to bring this into their business and find what is really at their core, not the veneer that they've put around it, which is oftentimes their offer. Yeah, like my like, I was a classic example, came out of 20 years working for leading advertising agencies in London. And I was like, right, what do I have to bring literally out the gate has that rights, productivity, accountability, CEO mindset, I was like, literally all these years in corporate, I know how to make shit happen, right? I'm a doer. I'm a go-getter. I'm an action taker. And I need to teach the world how to be like me. Yeah. So if I went, and I started selling my coaching with this as the kind of overall message, but what I was actually doing, inadvertently, was calling in clients who were the opposite to me, because I came up with the assumption that if I'm a go-getter, and I'm going to make stuff happen, then I need to sell lead to people who can't make stuff happen. The people that are the new entrepreneurs who were like spinning their wheels, procrastinating, just not very motivated. And I know that you get this and everyone listening is gonna get this because it's an energy thing. And we were locking in some sort of codependent energy, where they were writing my energy to get a momentary piece of action going on in their business. And I was linking in with them feeling that if I could carry them through and get it done for them, then that made me worthy. And in actual fact, it was my own breakthrough from that experience, as well as some others that taught me that we really have to go back to who we are, not who they are, first and foremost. And that's where I conceived and created what I now call brand epics, which is going into the EU of your business. And that's the bit that's going to make your business sustainable, and joyful, and ultimately more magnetic, because, you know, if you're full of joy and your high vibe, and you're loving what you do, of course, you're gonna attract your soul clients, which is what this piece is all about. So yeah, that experience for me, taught me that actually, I'm an A type, over proving overdoing burnout. That was another one that I'd been through. And my soul clients really share those characteristics. They have fear of judgment, imposter syndrome, a fair dose of perfectionism, and like my journey into woo-woo, and completely changed or changed my brand messaging entirely. But it's not just brand messaging, I changed me to a high degree, I did the work, I spent several months walking around the forest barefoot going, I can't take this wounded masculine, a minute longer, I'm going to learn divine feminine, and I'm going to get into balance. And I'm going to find the peace in my business that I thought I would get by leaving corporate. But of course, I took me with me. And so it was about going within and changing me and actually coming out much happier. But even more so from a business perspective, in a position to actually help those people that I'm meant to help and have so much fun doing it.

Kathryn Thompson  07:24

Yeah, I love that you share that bit about that like codependency because I feel like our stories are so similar me leaving corporate coming from a very masculine driven go-getter, whatever, attracting those clients that needed my energy to catapult forward and realizing that was just an energy drain on me at the end of the day. And I think I didn't realize that until you just said that, like that's an unlocking thing that just happened for me is like that. I had created those relationships with clients that weren't an energetic match. But I've equally done the inner work as a result, right that Whoo. So how did you come from corporate have this messaging that was like, what it was dived into who you were, and then create that evolution? Because I think that that, at least what I hear from my clients often is like, they know that they're meant for more they know they're ready for that expansion. But it's like, how do I evolve my message. When I've cultivated what I have, I don't want to lose what I have is what I hear a lot of times, I don't want to lose the audience, the clients, all of those sorts of things, or don't want to leave people out. So how do I do that? And still stay true to myself. So how did you evolve your message ultimately, to where you are now?

Jo Ingram 08:48

Now? That's a great question. And the answer kind of comes in two parts. There's the how, as in practically, how did I find out what my real message was? I did the little finger thing, though. Because when I said real, because it's ever-evolving. It's my message for now. And it's 100% authentic, but I have absolutely no doubt that I will evolve it again and again, as I grow and change and so do my clients. So that doesn't change the fact that there's still a how, and I'll tell you, I'm really, really happy to dive into that. But I would like to answer the question you asked more directly, which was about the fear of losing what I got in order to transform into my next level. And the reality is, is that for many people, it's a two-degree shift, but a vital to degree. I mean, you often hear the story of you know, if you fly a plane a distance I think the one I hear is from flight from LA to New York and you change to degrees you land in Delaware now, something more local than beyond know if I'm telling the truth on that wonder if I've missed remember the quote, but the point is, it's might be only a small amount, but you're definitely going to be ate in a completely different place. Yeah, that's how it happened for me, I started to change my message at first on my podcast, because I felt really safe there. Because, you know, we go through this fear of judgment. And I was like, if I start coming out with the fact that I'm now woowoo, and I'm developing my whole ethos, using the law of attraction at that point, and diving into booking as many Akashic record sessions as I can, and this was super fun for me and still remains. So how will people think of that? Because at that point, I really saw myself as the ex-corporate boardroom director. Yeah. And I had this image of the women that I worked for at my old advertising agency, you know, metaphorically standing around the water cooler, which is probably like a zoom coffee these days, right? And going, Oh, my God, have you seen what she's doing? She's like, lost control of her mind. Just joined a cult. I don't know, I just put myself into this cynical London advertising agency space, and just thought that's the sort of stuff. But of course, it was just nonsense. I mean, I know that as you're listening to this, you know, it's nonsense, because we all know that there is belief constructs that we're creating to hold ourselves back out of fear of a multitude of different things. So I got over myself, by starting in a place I felt really safe, which was on my podcast, and I started share my journey. And this was a really pivotal thing. Because sometimes the fear of really evolving into who we really be, is about the fear that we're not there yet. How could I? How you know, what, what gives me the right to speak about to teach to be somebody that's in this space over here, which, by the way, if you're thinking that is already in your heart, and it's in your vortex, it's already there, for when you're ready to step into it. But if you're thinking I'm not ready, what like, How do you tackle that? So for me, I just showed up with a lot of authenticity and saying, This is my journey, right now. I didn't show up and say, Hey, I read a book on Law of Attraction. And I think I'm going to teach it now they want to come listen, what I did say was, I'm, like, really burned out. And there's one thing about me, and I'm not giving up, and I'm consistent. And there are a lot of things that I still desire. And I desire to help. And I'm stepping into this feminine flow. And I'm sharing my journey. And something really well crazy slash incredible happened not too much longer after that. Somebody who listened to my podcast, regular listener sent me a message and said, our love, love, love what you're talking about. Just wondering when you're going to hold your manifesting workshop. Slug. Then you don't have this written, you know, the universe sends us the site. Yeah. And no, I didn't set up a manifesting workshop. There wasn't the result. But what did happen was a breakthrough in which I realized that in my sessions with my one-to-one clients, I was already teaching this, as they would talk about challenges. It was one that I had dealt with only last week, and I shared my experience. And I found myself constantly a couple of steps ahead. And not only that, but inspired to talk about it. And they were finishing a coaching session, without filling in my the action plan of which I used to feel was the most important thing, but now full of inspiration and taking inspired action. And that was the direction that I've been in ever since really, when it comes to the type of coaching I like to do.

Kathryn Thompson  13:43

Yeah, I love that whole piece of like being a couple steps ahead, but also sharing the journey, right? It's like, this is what I'm doing. This is where I'm going, I might not have it all figured out. But like come along for the ride. And I feel like people resonate more with that type of messaging and content than like, I know at all. Let me teach you how, right there's an ability I feel like to connect when you're just like authentically saying, Yeah, I don't really have 100% certainty of where this is going to go or what the result is going to be. But it's something that's been put on my heart that I want to pursue or to follow. And I know the whole identity piece is going to resonate with people when you talk about that water cooler like oh, what's Joe doing now? Did you see she's joined a cult or she's talking about the gooey stuff that doesn't make sense or whatever. And I know that a lot of our listeners are going to resonate with that whether they've gone through it or they're feeling it right now because I like I said I feel like my story is so in alignment in a lot of ways with yours is like coming out of corporate and then like redefining who you are and continually evolving. So I want to talk about the evolution piece of it because it's Um, again is because, you know, I think sometimes we think messaging is one and done. You know, it's like, once I nail my messaging, I'm going to have it all sorted out and the clients are going to come flooding in when it's an evolution as you change as you grow as you put more energy or expand into different parts, your messaging is constantly evolving to and do you find that your clients have that same sort of perspective, I know some of my clients do is like, once I just get this done and figure it out, you know, I'm gonna have everything all. Yeah, peachy keen, but it doesn't really work that way.

Jo Ingram 15:33

You have literally like, jumped into my head or into my little zoom download folder. Because this was the exact conversation I was having. Yesterday, when we were talking, I was talking to a client about messaging and literally saying, I use exactly the same words, said it's never one and done. Oh, my God is literally stepping into your next elevation, your next evolution on your journey forward. And let's be honest, your next evolution can be a massive quantum leap in income in impact. It's not to be minimized. Just because we're telling you definitively this won't be the end game. And actually, I see that as a benefit. Because we creative people, if I said, Look, I'm gonna hand you your complete finished messaging with your shiny signature offer, and here's an audience, and so on. That's you for the next 10 years, yes, you'll get your 10k months enjoy how long, you're gonna do that before the satisfaction dries up, as Abraham Hicks call it like the dried-up chewing gum, right? You're gonna go like, it's just the juiciness is gone. And that's one of the gifts that we have in entrepreneurship and coaching is that we give ourselves the gift of continually evolving. So yes, getting your messaging right for now, is 100%, the most critical foundation, I believe that you can do for your business, before you go ahead and build your audience before you go ahead and do all the other things. Because no one will come to you, or at least not your sole clients, and at least not in the capacity that you wish them to, until you really dive into the you of your business.

Kathryn Thompson  17:21

Yeah. And you talked about the action steps because I know that in my program, you know, each week, my ladies, you know, say what steps they're going to take this week or whatnot. And I always find it interesting, because while I think that it's beneficial to outline what your goals are, and all those sorts of things, I feel like it's equally beneficial to have the inspiration to walk away from calls or to be in a space or container where you're not only just checking things off a box, because how juicy is that? Right? When we're in creators and we want to create stuff. We want to be in that creative zone. And so and we need inspiration within ourselves or from other people or outside sources to be able to really tap into that creativity. And so, you talked about that, you know, I think sometimes as coaches or consultants, right, we measure the success of our programs of our containers with what people are achieving, and attaining and checking off a to do list and sometimes minimize or at least in my experience, minimize how impactful we can be with our messaging and our content when it creates and sparks inspiration within somebody. Do you feel that way as well with your women and your clients?

Jo Ingram 18:46

100% and like you in my group program, and with my one to ones we do action steps because like yourself, you know, we're a beautiful blend of the divine masculine and the divine feminine, we need inspiration and we need to take actions. So being organized and having a an overlay of intention for the week and being able to step into that is vital, but it was never the thing that leads with the lacking of inspiration and the flow that comes from going for a walk in the forest. Yeah, making sure you get your daily meditation joining a breathwork session which literally I mean when I was working with a coach who really spiritual business coach was introduced to breathwork sessions. And it was so inspiring to me. I then became a facilitator and I'm so excited to join your group and share some of that goodness with them because it isn't okay to just be in the ego minds all the time as a really driven woman. Were like our heads are so busy, right? And is this something that makes me laugh as well as that I used to believe that some of the things that have been my biggest challenges in the last year used to be, I considered them to be my greatest skills. I was like, I have such an active mind. It's always on the go. It's amazing. I can just look at rest, but still be planning things. It was a bit like, you know, it's a bit like the multitasking lie that women have been told for the last generation. It's like, you rock, you're amazing multitaskers meaning trying to do everything and kill yourselves in the meantime, but get into hell, it's like, and I bought into all of this rhetoric wholesale. And I'm having to unlearn it all and breathwork as well as particular types of like active somatic meditations, Kundalini meditate so on have allowed me to get out my head. So being able to bring that into my programs has been something that I wouldn't have done a year ago, until I decided that, if it's good for me, it's good for the women I work with, and I need to either bring it myself or to facilitate it, which is why I call myself an energy curator. Because there's a little bit of imposter there. And I'm not going to get on totally authentic about it. I'm like, Yeah, I don't want to call myself like I'm a certified pranic, healer and breathwork facilitator. But I do not plus myself in a category of an energy worker or a healer, because that isn't the energy that I'm bringing today. And I'm not going to exclude that from my future. But right now, as an energy curator, it means I get to play, it means that I get to invite amazing energy workers to share their gifts in my group, it means I get to run breathwork sessions. And that's what I like doing in my spare time. Well, how blessed Am I to be doing it as my job and bringing it to people who are loving it every bit as I do. And that's the bit that I really like to teach in the brand epics process. This part is it for interests, because epics is an anagram. And if interest is one of the passions and interests that you're doing, where is that missing from your business? And it's quite incredible how revealing that as well as all the other elements can be about showing you what you're excluding, or indeed, over-representing.

Kathryn Thompson  22:27

Yeah, so interesting, because when I left corporate, and it's and I jumped feet for first and entrepreneurship, opened my wine business, while my wine business got back into coaching and consulting. And there was this, it's so interesting, because my life outside of my business, when I first started, it was like, playful and fun. And I'm a bit of a jokester, and have this sort of like dry sense of humor, and all of those sorts of things. But I always looked at businesses very serious, and like, you've got to be professional, and you've got to, you know, all those sorts of things. So it's like marrying who you truly are, like you said, going back to who you are going back to within, like, Who are you, you don't have to change who you are to run your business, right? You get to be who you are. And the whole interest thing, I think is a big part of why, at least I know is like for myself is why sometimes I lose interest in my business, because I'm not incorporating all of the things that I love to do. And some things are meant to be a hobby and left a hobby and not monetized. But like you said, you're bringing these things that you love to do day to day, and I think that at least my clients I know struggle with creating content or coming up with messaging or those sorts of things, because they're so stuck in their head, they've got that overactive brain, they can't get out of it. Like I've got to do it right. It's gotta get it sort of perfect, but breathwork and yoga and walking barefoot in nature, like that stuff is what actually I find now gives me some of my greatest content, because I'm tuned into that. So I love that you incorporate that what are the other meanings of the of your what you're discussing epic, right? Is it epic? Yeah, grand

Jo Ingram 24:12

epics. Yeah. So E stands for experience. That is well fundamentally work and life experience. But where this gives a real clue to your business is whether you've overindulged one specific area of experience. And most of the women I work with this is true, I've just like it was true of me, which is where you took something that you used to do in corporate and make it your coaching business wholesale. So you know, 111 woman brings all of her sales knowledge and she set herself up as a sales coach. And you know, it's not doesn't take very long before it feels a bit one dimensional and you're bringing a lot of the habits from the old work over into this new experience. So experience is great to dive into and under Stan exactly what elements you're bringing in. But the P, that's the P in epics moves into pain points and struggles. And from a messaging perspective, because of course, we all know that pain points and struggles are important. Yeah, but one of the greatest hiding places that we have as coaches is our fear of being vulnerable, and actually sharing, not just pain and struggle, but those things that we felt shame over, particularly, and starting to talk about them in order to engage that person who is our ideal sole client, not because they've necessarily experienced the exact thing that you're talking about. This is where people get a bit confused. They're like, Well, yeah, but for example, for me, I nearly died in childbirth, I'm not expecting to go out and say this, so I can attract people who nearly died in childbirth, you and I will talk about how this was another experience in my life, that taught me that I can only trust myself, that I had to do everything that I wasn't safe if I was in other people's hands. And that was a theme that I had since childhood, that led me into a place of being the martyr and getting into burnout and working so hard, and not trusting the universe, not even accepting that I was supported, which meant that I couldn't receive and it meant I couldn't surrender. And all of this was wrapped up. And that was a story gateway, for me, is a story for me to be able to express that feeling, which I know so many people do relate to? Because we've had experiences and their own reasons why they carry the load. And they don't. And of course, what happens, then you go law of attraction doesn't work. Like, why isn't your why can you slow? Well, if you're a person that finds it hard to surrender and let go, then you're gonna have to get into a lot more meditation and a lot more somatic releases to get to that place where you feel safe enough that you can step into it.

Kathryn Thompson  27:06

Yeah. And then the eye is interesting and then see is

Jo Ingram 27:12

thank you for keeping me on track. Yeah, no worries. See is character and personality. This one uniquely reveals why you're not working with your absolute soul clients. And a good illustration was the one I gave earlier about me working with clients, just like you said, who were energy vampires just showed up to basically get you to do it for them, if not practically, and let's be honest, sometimes we do too much practically. But certainly energetically riding on those energetic coattails. But also in the case of a client I've worked with recently, for her character, she's so rebellious, and you know, cheeky and just ready to break the rules. But although she knew that about herself, that wasn't tall what she was expressing and her business and much like you just described, she had kind of decided that business was a little bit more sensible than that, and had a much more sensible message, which strangely or not strangely looked very similar to many others in her niche, there just wasn't that stand out attitude to it, which is, is acceptable if you don't have anything that you can stand out. But the reality is, everybody does. And in her case, she had something very distinct. And it was only through uncovering the character through specific prompts. And that thought partnership exchange of co-creation, that it became really apparent that this was not only great messaging was awesome positioning, you got it was her, it wasn't like, hey, let's find something out there. It was, let's find something in there, and bring it to your business and so on. So, you know, she lit up and has gone off with really high energy to move into the next phase of that one. So the character piece, I the moment I'm super excited about how that really transforms your understanding of your soul client. And onto s. Yeah, I'm on a trail right s is skills. And what skills tell us? Well, all of them can reveal all sorts of things. But working with so many clients on this on this particular process. What I've found uniquely that skills does is show us how we're working in the wrong way. Now, everyone is jumping in or jumping on to bandwagons of specific offer types. It's the launch it's the group offer. It's the once-a-week package. It's you know, we all have these preconceptions. Maybe we've worked with a business coach and that was their model. Maybe we've just seen others do it or worked with a coach and we're just imitating whatever it might look like we're like, right? I'm gonna do a three-month package and it's one-to-one and you meet with me once a week and I send you the replay. And that's what we do. And why do we do that? I don't know. That's just what we do. And actually, if you look at your skill set and find out what really lights you up, so much is revealed. When I did this for myself, I released myself from having to create about 40 video trainings by doing it all audio. What am I really good at, I'm not really good at podcasting. I'm brilliant at it, and I edit my own stuff. And I've got all the skills and video, not so much. I don't like dyeing my hair or putting on my makeup, but I can get over that. But I'm also not very good at editing it. And I'm just like, I haven't got the person. I just created this whole story in my mind that video was hard. Now I know it's not hard. But I created the story. So therefore it was hard. And yet audio was easy. So I was like, Well, what, who said that my training modules have to be videos just because somebody else is doing it that way. And here's the funniest thing. When I actually got in touch with my clients to check, because I'm a perfectionist, I cannot call for it right, but a market research. And I said like, how would you feel if a certain number of modules were just audio? And they said, Well, we tend to listen to it in the car on our walks. We kind of don't always watch the video not unless there's a particular thing that you're making us look at. And I'm like, huh, so you're saying the audio works better for you? Oh, yeah. Sometimes with the Wi-Fi, we can't even string that I'm like, right enough? Yeah, I got it. And this is just one example. There are dozens of similar examples of when we look at what our skills really are, and ask why we're not transferring more of them directly into our business, then we can create that ease instead of the efforting. efforting is when we're constantly trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. And it's like it's hard work. And the funny thing is that we're super capable, right? We're super bright, super capable, super driven. We make it work.

Jo Ingram 32:08

But it's that's the exhaustion part. That's the bit where we go into burnout, we just drag we're like, wake up and go, Oh, I have to record a video module today. Where's the joy, it's not that we don't want to teach the thing is, we're not leaning into the fact we don't want to see our clients once a week, I want to see them twice a month. That's another one I discovered worked better for my clients. Or they're like, we didn't have time to do the assignments in a week because we're busy. But we want to check we want to do it and I introduced a boxer so we can talk the whole time. And now I've got way more spaciousness in my calendar, they've got spaciousness to achieve the goals and things they desire. And this, the examples go on and on. Everyone needs to look at their skills, and really think about what works best for them. And they will discover that it works best for their ideal clients, too.

Kathryn Thompson  32:58

So beautiful, too, because I think one of the things I know when I came into the online space, you know, and my whole mission is to ditch the cookie cutter. And yet I was trying to fit the square peg into a round hole and do it like everybody else was teaching, right. And one of the biggest things and I love that you talked about just providing audio because the big thing I've always felt was like, why do people need these big long modules with like, 85 videos in it, right, I'd gone through courses were and I would start to emulate that. But then in my head, I'm like, same thing like you is like, I don't want to record necessarily all these videos are I wanted to make it as streamlined and as simple as possible. And yet we get caught up in trying to make it fit what maybe another coach was doing or what we see being successful, that isn't really maximizing who we truly are and the skills that we bring to the table one of the big ones I often get, when I started to do the energetic work was like get out of the weeds Katherine like as a manifesting generator. I'm this high-level big picture of you and before six, right, so I'm like, in the clouds half the time, but yet I was bringing myself down into the weeds and trying to like offer all of these steps and processes and all these sorts of things. And it was like that's you're a big strategist person, and a content strategist person. And then obviously, I am a good writer, I express myself in writing. But I also know a lot of my clients express themselves better on video or better through audio or don't want to spend all this time writing content on social media. And so a big one of you know, you summarize it so well with the whole skills pieces, like do what works for you and what your natural gifts are. And that's where the magic happens, right? It's when we're trying to force ourselves and we are we're making habit people like if you're ambitious and a go-getter, you're trying to make it happen. And that might work for a while but I know from experience that doesn't work forever, and it's not sustainable. So

Jo Ingram 35:05

I love how you talked about your human design. Yeah, that actually provided a pivotal moment for me too. I'm a five-one reflector. Yeah. And when I sort of got over the fact that I'm a reflector, and I was like, No, I'm not, I must be a manifesting generator. Right, but no, I'm not. But I actually realized that when I reviewed what I was doing, at my best, it was when I was working with people, and articulating on their behalf, what it was that was on their heart, what their, what their truth was, what their message was. And when I talk about brands, epics, it's a process that enables a great amount of reflection. It's just going through it to bring the truth out. And I realized that as that reflecting energy, I was able to join the dots and pull things out for people that gave them the breakthrough that they needed to realize that they do they are already this or that, that they're just not bringing it fully or at all into their business via Of course, their messaging, what they have to say, that dials in their mission, and their stories, and all that goodness. But if it wasn't for human design, I'm not sure I would have taken that step back. And I would have been instead going it's still about accountability because that's how I thought I was I thought I was the box checker. I thought that that was I was always at work that complete a finisher. But I was always told particularly by my husband, and it's like, no, no, no, you're, you're a blue sky thinker, because that's what we call it in corporate. You're a blue sky thinker. No, we're not a completed finisher. And now I'm, I embrace both. But I lean, but I lean towards the fact that I enjoy the inspiration part more, which is what you said right? Earlier on, you said yeah, as coaches, that we're actually here as catalysts, we're here as inspirers. To win, we both work in the business coach space, particularly for us. We're catalyzing coaches of all different types, helping people with ripples that go way beyond we could ever imagine, to make transformations and change big things in the world. And that comes through inspiring through our truth through our vulnerability through our authenticity, not just through telling people what to do is a big transition for me, I like to telling people what to do now and like I like inviting people to make to take their own leaps forward in their own breakthroughs. And that energy's been a gift for me, because it takes a lot of pressure off myself. I'm not telling myself what to do as much. Still a little. Yeah, I'm always gonna be recovering type a right. Yeah, that, that being able to invite myself to follow my joy and to lean into my natural gifts more.

Kathryn Thompson  38:07

Yeah. And it's so interesting, because for anyone that doesn't know what human design is, I talk about it from time to time, but definitely check it out. But a reflector, you're a very rare type, but one 1% of the world's population are reflectors. And, and you talked about once I got over that, I want to dive into that a little bit. Because when I think I've never connected with a reflector, so I don't know any other reflectors. And I know that a big gift of a reflector is holding that big mirror up. So you can pull like you have this innate gift, just from who you are to be able to draw out, you know, someone's message someone's true someone's authenticity, that is what you do. It is crazy. Yeah, that is what you're here to do. And so you're totally in the right alignment of work, right is pulling what's on someone's heart. And I want to go back to that piece of what you said, like I really help people pull out what's on their heart, because I think we think, as ambitious go-getters, entrepreneurs, we're always in our head. We're constantly thinking of what we need to do to be successful. And I think that's where we can lose that authenticity of what's truly on our heart. And you're helping people reconnect with that get back to who they truly are, so that they can be the full reflection of who they are in their business.

Jo Ingram 39:32

Absolutely. And the crazy thing is oftentimes what's actually on someone's heart is something that they think is a negative. And through our process, we transmute that into not only not being a negative, but to being a strength that they can't wait to shout about. So, for example, I worked with a career coach who felt some discomfort With the fact that she had moved job a number of times, and a lot of the people she worked with were long careerists in particular large companies. Now I didn't I don't see that as a problem. But she did. She was like, you know, how can I talk to them about career progression when I just move jobs all the time, you know, and it's, it's a little different. But through the process, and going into her particular brand epics, what we discovered was that she wasn't about career progression per se, she was actually about freedom in Korea. And when we unlocked what she was really about what was really on her heart and what she'd always sought. And that's why she'd moved jobs. She was after freedom. And it wasn't the type of freedom necessarily, that we always talk about in, in entrepreneurship. It was the freedom to be at the C suite table and be be making big decisions. It was the freedom to drive big teams in powerful directions. Freedom could be to combine work and life with a family. But you know, everybody has their own definition of freedom. And when she unlocked that, when we unlocked it in a session, every problem that she had in fitting together, how she helped entrepreneurs, how she helped career women, how she had all these different strands, her business suddenly made total sense. And the irony was, it was the piece that she felt was the shadow side the shame was the message. And it was it was quite magical, actually. Yeah, cried. Yeah, it's like, thing. It sounds so simple. Yeah. But sometimes the simplest things are the things that we overlook the easiest, we pass them over to too quickly. We don't even realize they're there.

Kathryn Thompson  41:51

Yeah, it's the and that's why I think having a coach right is or hiring a mentor is such a powerful thing. Because the thing that we think is a negative or not good is actually the gift and we likely wouldn't have seen it ourselves. If we didn't have somebody mirroring that back, that client wouldn't have likely unlocked it. Or if they did, it would be years down the road where they're like, Oh, my goodness, I can't believe it took me six years to do this. Whereas like you unlocked it in that session, you were able to mirror that back.

Jo Ingram 42:24

Got it? Yeah, you gotta go find reflector friends somewhere and just talk for a really long.

Kathryn Thompson  42:30

Totally, totally. And so what did you feel like? You said you, it took you a while to get over the fact that you weren't a mani Jen or something? Like, what was it about the reflector that maybe you saw was a negative? Or, you know, maybe you didn't relate to or I'd like to dive into that a little bit.

Jo Ingram 42:49

Right? Well, one thing I really didn't like, well, two things, actually. One is that my understanding is that reflectors really embrace the element of surprise. And I'm like, nope. No, I like to know ahead of time, I'm a planner. So I've got to be honest, that one is still kind of, you know, just sitting out there. But another one that was an interesting piece was this idea that because reflectors are led by the lunar cycle more than any other type. It's always best for us to wait 28 days before making any big decisions. And I am an extraordinarily decisive person. So like, surely that cannot be me, I make a decision. I'm emphatic about the decision, and I move off in that direction. But upon reflection, I actually realized that this is probably sound advice. Maybe part of my mission now in my life is to slow down. Just Whoa, take a breath. Because, you know, running 100 miles an hour all the time, hasn't got me where I wanted to go. In the past, at least not with ease, not with, not with grace. So giving it that time is something that, you know, gets it's something that it's probably a gift for me to receive, even though at the moment I'm still playing around with it, though, as I was told by actually a mutual friend of ours did a reading for me, and looked into my name, and realized that actually, there's quite a lot in my name, Joe Ingram that actually symbolizes hard work. And she's like, without even knowing all my background, she's like, Oh, looks like these have been quite hard work in your life. I'm like, no kidding. Like, I got there, but God, I've got the battle scars. Nothing's come easy. And when she looked at my full given name, which is Joanna Ingram, she said, Oh, my goodness, this is beautiful. This is so much more flow in this name. And I said it's funny you said that because when I first launched my business I decided I was going to leave joke showing Grimm, the corporate girl behind and re-embrace the name from my childhood. But I don't know why I probably got in my head. Maybe I don't want to change my email, I don't know, I was just like, oh, whatever moved on. And yet when she spoke these words, it really, it felt authentic. It dropped in as truth for me. But now I'm like, Whoa, that's a bit of a workload, changing my name for my website, my and also everyone knows me as Joe Ingram, and the assets in this podcast and all the things that will have my name on it. So I'm like, I'm gonna wait 28 days. And then I'm still feeling that that's the right direction, then I'll take that step then. But yeah, watch this space, you're gonna see all my socials, everything changing over.

Kathryn Thompson  45:48

Yeah, it's so interesting, because when I started my business creatively owned, obviously is the name I went with. But so many people know me as Kathryn Thompson. And I've had the same sort of like, inner battle, because I felt this pull to like, go back to my given name as the name of my business. But the thought of changing though everything is the thing that's definitely holding me back. And I know that I wanted to touch a bit on the 28 days to make a decision. What's interesting is, is I'm curious to know if people around you are well, most of you are a generator type. So I'm wondering if that generator energy around you is mirroring something out of you, that's not really your true design. You know what I mean? Like when you're like, I'm super decisive, and I make these quick decisions, and all these sorts of things. You've got all these like, maybe Mani Jen's, or Jenny's around you that are like, you're like, I gotta make the decision. And you're reflecting that energy within yourself. Yeah,

Jo Ingram 46:51

that really resonates. And in fact, you've just reminded me that when I did actually have a human design reading, and we talked about just this, she said the same which was all those years working in advertising agencies, which are very driven. I mean, there's gonna be lot projectors and managers, and all of this generate all of them, but probably not too many reflect. Yeah, but I would have just been soaking up that energy. And you know, my parents were just hard grafters, always working work. And so probably my whole life, I just soaked up particular ways of being. And that's why more than ever, now I recognize the importance of clearing my energy, cutting my cords, having my salt baths, getting my bare feet on the ground, is I had a coaching coach, I had to nearly back to back, Brad epic sessions yesterday with clients. And I came up with the first one. And literally, my hands were just shaking I don't ever get it was a very exciting session. Like, we chose stuff channeled through it was just the energy was incredible. But afterwards, I say, wow, I've got another call in half an hour, I have to discharge this energy and literally got down on the ground, and sort of shook it all out and did some breathing. And well, I wouldn't have done that between boardroom sessions. Right?

Kathryn Thompson  48:10

Right. Yeah, I just gotta go and take my shoes off and soak into it well, and it's interesting, because a lot of the clients I attract are wide open in a lot of ways, might have a few colored in centers or whatever. But when I dove into human design, I'm a many Gen at a quantum level. But I'm a reflector at a body and a personality level. And so when I was reading into that is like, I equally can pick up a lot of energy. So like open centers. Yeah, so I have a ton of open centers. So traditionally, is what when I did Human Design readings, they were like, Yeah, you're a manager in but like you're not like a traditional manager and because you are a reflector at that mind and body. So you still are like, basically like an antenna walking around. So you still have to, even though you can move quickly and your you know, can make spontaneous decisions or whatever, you're still picking up a ton of energy. And I noticed a lot of my clients who I attract equally are either generators for projectors, but have a ton of open centers and they're they feel the same sort of way as like, yeah, you know, pick up energy or they're like, Is this mine? Or is this somebody else's? altogether and that, like you said that vibrating energy you can get that sort of buzz from the calls in a good way, right? The energy is amazing, but it's like you gotta shake it. Shake it off, for sure. Yeah,

Jo Ingram 49:37

it's like that amazing electric buzz. But you don't want to go touching the car door. You know,

Kathryn Thompson  49:42

it's totally, totally Well, it's been such a pleasure connecting with you. As always, I love our conversations. Is there anything else you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up?

Jo Ingram 49:57

Yeah, come visit my podcast of Ah, Catherine will be a guest very very soon. And I I'm so excited to repeat. Like all the different things we can talk about again, but too bad this one has to end right here. Yeah, yeah, I'm on goals with soul. So come over and listen there if you'd like to. And I just want to say thanks so much, Catherine. I just enjoyed this conversation so much.

Kathryn Thompson  50:20

Yes, me as well. And where can people find you if they want to connect with you?

Jo Ingram 50:25

Right now on Instagram? I am called. I am Joe dot Ingram. If you if you're listening to this in the future, and you can't find me check out Joanna. Because that will be my new name on Instagram. I

Kathryn Thompson  50:39

love it. Love it. And we will link that up in the show notes for our listeners can so you guys can quickly access that and definitely yeah, go check out Joe's podcast. It's amazing. You had just had your 100th episode, which was so awesome. Yeah. And you're crushing it in the podcast game. You've got tons of downloads and an amazing audience. And so yeah, definitely go check out all the wisdom you have to share. So yeah, it's been a pleasure as always, and I loved having you on.

Jo Ingram 51:09

Thank you so much.

Kathryn Thompson 51:11

You're welcome.

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